Sea Breeze

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Posts by Sea Breeze

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  52

  Free Will - Does It or Does It Not Exist?

  by truth_b_known in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  being born-in and raised as one of jehovah's witnesses i remember a common theme or phrases used by the watchtower in its theory of why things are the way they are -.

  jehovah created humans.

  jehovah created humans as free moral agents.

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  Sea Breeze

  "Free Will cannot exist as every outcome is completely determined by the given set of conditions"

  Assumptive, not scientific.
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  162

  A new generation of anointed that will not pass away.

  by Fisherman in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  obviously, the older “ anointed ” from 1914 died.

  and because they were anointed, they hopefully went to heaven.

  in the first century though, a newer generation did not replace the old.

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  Sea Breeze

  I agree VH7. I will gladly remove the below post if DJW would start a new thread on Scientific Naturalism. If this is his yearning to get other adherents like he says... he shouldn't be afraid of honest discussion.

  Anyway, For most people, naturalism assumes materialism. Note what Stanford Encyclopedia says:

  Naturalism

  First published Thu Feb 22, 2007; substantive revision Tue Mar 31, 2020

  The term “naturalism” has no very precise meaning in contemporary philosophy. Its current usage derives from debates in America in the first half of the last century. The self-proclaimed “naturalists” from that period included John Dewey, Ernest Nagel, Sidney Hook and Roy Wood Sellars. These philosophers aimed to ally philosophy more closely with science. They urged that reality is exhausted by nature, containing nothing “supernatural”, and that the scientific method should be used to investigate all areas of reality, including the “human spirit” (Krikorian 1944, Kim 2003).

  So understood, “naturalism” is not a particularly informative term as applied to contemporary philosophers.

  As far as most people are concerned, I believe that the three major components to naturalism are 1) scientism — the belief that scientific knowledge is either the only form of knowledge or a vastly superior form of knowledge; 2) the belief that the atomic theory of matter and the theory of evolution explain all events; and 3) the belief that non-physical things don’t exist and that the world isn’t here for any purpose.

  Scientific Naturalism assumes that we are in a closed system. Since there is no way of testing this, it torpedoes its own foundation before it even gets started doesn't it?
  
  If it is closed, the where did the information come from that is inherent in light, matter, DNA, etc come from ?

  Scientific Naturalism is a dead end.
  
  
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  162

  A new generation of anointed that will not pass away.

  by Fisherman in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  obviously, the older “ anointed ” from 1914 died.

  and because they were anointed, they hopefully went to heaven.

  in the first century though, a newer generation did not replace the old.

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  Sea Breeze

  I yearn for the vast majority of human society, including the vast majority of humans of western civilization, including the vastly majority of humans of the USA, to embrace scientific naturalism.

  DJW, are you aware that neither you nor any other atheist can argue against the reality of non-material things without using non-material things?

  It's like someone arguing that there's no such thing as oxygen, while breathing the whole time. It's almost like arguing that there's no such thing as arguing! When a materialist argues that only the material realm is real, that only material things exist, he cannot do that without using ideas, which Einstein pointed out are not physical.

  Like numbers, ideas themselves are not physical, yet are very real. They're not made of matter and they're not made of energy. Regardless of how much we use them or how often, they never run out and they never wear out. Numbers are without limit and do not have temperature, density, color, mass, volume, shape, a melting point, hardness, odor, length, etc. They lack the properties of matter and energy, and even of space and time.

  Here are a few other things that are outside of a materialist naturalism worldview:

  - Math is not physical.
  - Information is not physical.
  - Grammar is not physical.
  - Logic is not physical.
  - Reason is not physical.
  - Ideas are not physical.
  - Language is not physical.
  - Science is not physical.
  - Morality is not physical.
  - Truth is not physical.
  - Probability is not physical.
  - Souls are not physical.
  - Spirits are not physical.
  - Concepts are not physical.
  - Codes are not physical.
  - Loyalty is not physical.
  - Love is not physical.
  

  Light and matter itself travel as a mathematical probability wave that collapses into particles upon observation. Where did the information come from ? Why does observation trigger its transformation?

  A materialist naturalism world-view describes very little of our experience. Why would anyone buy into this as some sort of oasis of truth? There must be a larger reality that includes materialism and naturalism as part thereof, but at the same time accounts for the things it doesn't explain.

  I'm curious, Why do you yearn for others to join you in naturalism? What would this do for you if they did?
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  5

  How can JW's have a CLUE what the New Covenant is about...

  by BoogerMan in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  ...when their "slave class" doesn't?.

  it-1 p. 524 covenant - the covenant is forever in operation.... it-1 p. 524 covenant - the purpose of the new covenant requires that it continue in operation until all of the “israel of god” are resurrected to immortality in the heavens.. the new covenant is forever in operation, but only until the "anointed" have popped their clogs, been raptured to heaven, and morphed into 144,000 melchizedek king-priests.

  (just like christ!).

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  Sea Breeze

  Now, of course, I know it's because the WBT$ prints mentally retarded refuse.

  https://archive.org/details/allaboutonerusse00cook

  The above link is to a booklet written only 2 years after Russell started printing the WT. Local Pastors exposed the theological illiteracy and obvious deception of Russell's writings the best that they could, which was substantial.

  Russell comes off as an incredibly uneducated self absorbed liar, a narcissist who believed that he found himself prophesied in scripture.

  Local pastors were very concerned and refuted his nonsense for decades. But there was no internet back then and the WT simply out-printed them. The fact is that there was a vast market of uneducated and unchurched adherents that bought into :

  1. No judgement after death

  2. A second chance in paradise after you die.

  3. Complete non-existence if somehow you didn't make the team

  4. Confirmation that you are really smarter than all your educated peers.

  5. You are not fake like everyone else. You are honest-hearted.

  6. You get to take credit for your good works as opposed to Christianity where you do not.

  It was religion for the working man who was free of incumbrances like education, logic and sound doctrine. On my mom's side of the family, the first convert was an immigrant with a 3rd grade education. My dad was a Mississippi farm boy who didn't finish High School and started reading WT literature while stationed in Alaska during near 24 hr. darkness in winter.
  
  
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  52

  Free Will - Does It or Does It Not Exist?

  by truth_b_known in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  being born-in and raised as one of jehovah's witnesses i remember a common theme or phrases used by the watchtower in its theory of why things are the way they are -.

  jehovah created humans.

  jehovah created humans as free moral agents.

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  2. 
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  Sea Breeze

  What about babies who are still inside their mother? Do they have a right to choose to live?

  Excellent question. Those that claim they are pro-choice really seek to eliminate the free-will of those they would like to cancel.
  
  
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  52

  Free Will - Does It or Does It Not Exist?

  by truth_b_known in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  being born-in and raised as one of jehovah's witnesses i remember a common theme or phrases used by the watchtower in its theory of why things are the way they are -.

  jehovah created humans.

  jehovah created humans as free moral agents.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  Sea Breeze

  There needs to be an agreement on what the terminology means.

  Free Will doesn't mean that we are without influences, temptations, predispositions, context, etc. The fact that we can choose in spite of (as well as because of) such things is only further evidence of free will.

  Furthermore, if we choose not to exercise our free-will, that is an expression of free will as well.... just as making excuses is also a choice and an act of free-will.

  Animals exhibit some volition, but are generally void of moral choices. We are capable of making moral choices whether we choose to admit it, or choose to engage in it or not.
  
  
• 
  52

  Free Will - Does It or Does It Not Exist?

  by truth_b_known in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  being born-in and raised as one of jehovah's witnesses i remember a common theme or phrases used by the watchtower in its theory of why things are the way they are -.

  jehovah created humans.

  jehovah created humans as free moral agents.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Sea Breeze

  Have you ever truly loved someone? If so, you have proof of free will. You could have chosen not to. But you did. Love is evidence of free will. It cannot be programmed, coerced or manufactured. Love is freedoms' greatest expression.
• 
  162

  A new generation of anointed that will not pass away.

  by Fisherman in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  obviously, the older “ anointed ” from 1914 died.

  and because they were anointed, they hopefully went to heaven.

  in the first century though, a newer generation did not replace the old.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  Sea Breeze

  All christians going to heaven is nonsensical as I have unquestionably established.

  Fisherman,

  Aren't you even a little bit worried about preaching a gospel that was unknown to the apostles?

  
  

  CHRISTIAN CITIZENSHIP IS IN HEAVEN. The earth will be populated by the surviving nations after the GT.
  
  
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  33

  Do you think the Watchtower is right about about eternal punishment of the wicked?

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  atheists believe death is the end of personal existence.

  but for those who believe there is life after death, what do you think is the nature of final punishment?

  in other words do you agree with the atheists and the watchtower society or is there eternal ongoing conscious punishment awaiting the wicked.

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  Sea Breeze

  Job is probably the oldest book in the bible. In it, Job definitely had a hope in an afterlife".

  Almost overnight, Job lost everything — his family, his wealth, his health, even his friends. In the midst of it all, he felt he might be dying, but instead of shrinking back from death, he welcomed it. Why? Not only because he knew it would bring an end to his sufferings, but also because he knew that if he died he would go to be with God. (Job 19:)

  For I know that my Redeemer lives,
  and at the last he will stand upon the earth.
  26 And after my skin has been thus destroyed,
  yet in my flesh I shall see God,

  Other references:

  Isaiah 66:24

  However, there are two passages in the Old Testament that give us a glimpse of the punishment that will come upon the wicked in the end times. The first is Isaiah 66:24: “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

  The 65th and 66th chapters of Isaiah discuss the new heavens and new earth, and how God will bring all the nations to Jerusalem. However, at the end of chapter 66, God says of those who had rebelled against him that their worms will not die, and the fire that burns them will never be quenched. This is consistent with the imagery that is used in the New Testament (click here).

  This passage reflects the condition of those who are not a part of the new heavens and new earth. The implication is that these are the people who will be banished and punished by God and not be given a place among those in heaven.

  Daniel 12:1-3

  The second passage is Daniel 12:1-3. “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.”

  There are some very interesting things about these verses. First, they come after 11:36-45 which is speaking about the Antichrist. Second, the people whose names are found in the book are delivered. This sounds a lot like the Book of Life that is described in the book of Revelation. Third, this is the only place in the Old Testament that speaks about both the righteous and the wicked having a bodily resurrection. And fourth, the righteous will be given eternal life while the wicked will be given eternal shame and contempt.

  This is very similar to what Jesus teaches in Matthew 25:46 where the righteous receive eternal life and the wicked receive eternal punishment. Some like to argue that eternal punishment does not last forever, but if hell is not eternal, then heaven will not be eternal either (click here for more on that topic). Scholar Daniel Block says about Daniel 12:1-3:

  “Life [referring to eternal life] in this context means the recovery of that for which humankind was created in the beginning – free and open fellowship with God and a restoration of all the privileges and responsibilities involved with being the image of God, namely, once more governing the world as God’s representative and deputy. The fate of the wicked is the opposite. They are sentenced to perpetual disgrace…and shame…The former expression refers to the taunts and reviling of all who pass by, the latter to the revulsion and loathing that passers-by feel toward the sight. This interpretation of this rare word is confirmed by Isaiah 66:24 [our first passage above], the only other occurrence of [the Hebrew word for shame]. It describes the disposition one has toward the putrid and malodorous carcass of a dead animal infested with maggots and in an advanced stage of decay.”[5]

  Conclusion

  The Old Testament does not give us a lot of information about hell. However, the passages in Isaiah and Daniel do give us details that are consistent with the teachings of Jesus and the New Testament. Hell is eternal punishment for those who reject the one true God.

  Give the average man a guarantee that there is no hell, and you will tickle him in the right place. Tell him that the heathen are not lost, and it meets his heartiest approval. Show him that the worst of the very wicked need expect only non-existence after death, and he is "with you."

  The average person will defend such an easy-going, "common sense," satisfying religion, and will voluntarily subscribe and further this "comforting" view without even going to a KH.
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  263

  What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

  who is the way, the truth and the life?

  (john 14:6).

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  Sea Breeze

  SB what argument should I win because what you support doesn't make sense! Why God will worship to Himself, pray to Himself and subject to Himself? Jehovah never called Jesus My God, whereas Jesus call His Father " My God".

  You already know the answer to this question. It was explained to you with many scriptural references to you on page 2 of this thread. The reason is because Jesus is a Tri-Partite being just like you or me.
  
  

  You and every other JW continually try to frame this topic as an either or scenario. But, it is not an either or scenario, it is a both scenario. Regardless of the countless times that the Bible and Christians present a portrait of Jesus as BOTH God and Man, JW's are trained to ignore this and just keep on arguing a point that no Christian has a problem with.

  Jesus, the son of Mary is just as human as you or I. As such, it is appropriate for Jesus to pray to God. If the body is all there is to Jesus, then that would be the end of the discussion....Jesus is not God - and the bible contradicts itself.

  However the WT has taught a view that is foreign to the bible. It is a heresy.... one that effects other biblical doctrines.

  God has explained how we are made. We are constituted of three parts - soul body & spirit.

  The bible writers assume that the reader understands that fact. The view that we are only a body and that the soul is just our bad breath and your spirit is simply electricity - is a belief that is found in the modern worldview of Materialistic Naturalism, not the bible. Several false philosophies of the 18th and 19th centuries laid the groundwork in which Materialism could later take root and grow.

  The WT bought into this and adopts an unbiblical materialistic belief on the nature of man.

  They deny that we ourselves are anything other than a body when it comes to personhood.. Yet God says that, like him, we are a tri-partite being:

  1 Thessalonians 5:23 - And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

  
  Hebrews 4:12 - For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
  
  

  This is illustrated extensively throughout scripture: In language, personal pronouns denote personhood. He, she, I, they, etc. The bible assumes that the reader understands this 3rd grade grammar. For example:

  Rev. 6 - I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

  See all the personal pronouns? They are disembodied PERSONS who can think, speak, remember, complain and be comforted.

  The bible is full of examples like this:

  1Co_5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

  Isaiah 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early

  These should suffice to show that in the bible your body, soul and spirit are all characterized as YOU, AND NOT AN IT like the WT tries to present.

  This understanding that the WT has told you to reject clears up why you are having such a "problem". Jesus' body is the son of Mary, making him fully man. The spirit of Jesus was God himself. "God is a spirit". God is indivisible being omnipresent So, Jesus is fully God as well.

  This is why the bible calls him God's only-begotten (begotten means out of his essence) son. Angels were created but Jesus came out from the essence of the Father. This was a onetime, single solitary never-to-be-repeated event for all eternity - only-begotten.

  The bible teaches that Jesus is both God and Man at the same time.

  This chart illustrates how Jesus is both fully Man and fully God:

  
  

  I am not saying that you have to believe any of this. But, if you continue to reject this clear biblical teaching on the nature of man, you must logically conclude that Jesus was a mad man. You certainly cannot conclude that Jesus was any sort of a good person. Good people don't run around saying they are God.

  Perhaps no better example of this biblical truth is the entire exchange in John 8 where Jesus switches back and forth in one conversation from speaking as God to speaking as a man.

  John 8: 24

  I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. 25Then said they unto him, Who art thou?

  And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning..... 27They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.

  Wow! If a person doesn't believe that Jesus is Jehovah, they will die in their sins! But, then almost right away Jesus changes from speaking as God, to speaking as a man:

  "And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him."

  The Pharisees are shocked at this exchange and conclude he has a demon because he speaks as BOTH a man and as God. Then Jesus again changes from talking as a man with a beginning to God with no beginning and who is the great I AM.

  "Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil? 49Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me....Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

  There are many more examples of Jesus speaking as a man AND as God in this exchange recorded in John 8. This is because he is.

  None of this is of any importance to you because the bible is a closed book to you just as the WT has taught you. The WT views the bible as belonging only to them and as such they can pick and choose which scriptures to cite in support of their lies and which ones to ignore.... just as you do. Without any embarrassment I might add.
  
  It is shocking to people when they get a grasp of the depth of ignorance and bondage that JW's are in when they subject themselves mentally to such hucksters.

  These hucksters speak as God and view their proclamations as the bible itself!

  Watchtower December 15, 2008, pg. 28 – “Our
  

  coming to know „the truth‟ - the entire body of

  Christian teachings that has become part of the

  Bible - and adhering to it are essential for our

  salvation”.

  No one would have ever believed that human ignorance could sink so far as to accept the illogical and blasphemous decrees of 8 biblically illiterate obese fat men who imagine themselves to be the Savior of the world.

  Yet, talk to any JW and you will soon have proof of what is possible.